Another zombies rework

[ketufaispikinut]

Based on a discussion on the Space Station 14's #design-discussion channel.

[ketufaispikinut]

I'll rewrite it and reopen it.

[ketufaispikinut]

This should be considered a draft, I suppose.

[Mot2332]

Three things I though of when reading this

If the goal of Cburn is to prevent the spread of the virus through evacuations, does that mean that they want to nuke the station ?

On special infected, if special infected are introduced, what is going to be a regular infected ? The current zombies are already reasonably strong, so would they already be considered special infected ? Something like an "infection" zombie.

Also it seems that this document's changes doesnt consider that zombies also come from nuclear operatives, unless that means that nuclear operatives are no longer going to cause zombie apocalypses, which I guess makes sense if the crew themselves have the goal of nuking themselves on zombie rounds

[ProPeperos]

I like the mutation idea, although i would suggest having unique zombie viruses. Having one type of zombies is quite predictable and if they get detected early it's hard for them to actually win (unless they had some special strategy)

So first thing i would like to see the patients-zero having some special abilities and be a leader of the zombies that they could fallow and such, maybe even having special appearance and special icons for fellow zombies

So for the special mutations:

• Stelth - Would make regular zombies silent and they wouldn't get the "zombified" prefix, they still would turn green. You still would be able to scream and type to make noises, but they wouldn't be random. Patient zero on the other hand could have special ability to actually speak normally to communicate with other zombies and desive other players. Perhaps they could move with normal phase as well.

• Power - Regular zombies would do much more structural damage to get thru walls and defences much easier. Patient zero could become a charger type that would sprint at crew and could cause massive structural damage on impact. Patient zero shouldn't have more health than other zombies tho, but could regenerate health faster. This wouldn't change the damage that is caused to crew tho.

• Multiplication - Regular zombies would be able to place blob mines on the floor that when stepped on would inflict the virus. they could be removed with few blunt hits and instantly with heat damage. Patient zero would generate blobs that could move around and fallow them (just like rats of rat king). This would cause the patient zero to be kind of a bullet sponge, but they would be even more vulnerable to heat damage.

Overall this is a buff to zombies, but they could as well have some debuf that coresponds to the mutations like power zombies could be slower, multiplication being more vulnerable to fire, and stealth... honestly it would be fine.

This system would be then open for adding more mutations and stuff and would encourage people that actually chose zombies as an antag

Also zombies that aren't crew could still be normal and zombie kit for nukies would have just normal zombie virus

[AppalachianHooch]

Pacing is the hardest problem here. You need hard pacing controls, relying on players to make your game mode work is signing up for frustration. You've got to fit initial outbreak, spread, collapse of function, and evacuation inside an hour, maybe an hour thirty. Each of those stages depends on the prior stage, with lots of room to go off the rails.

Define how the round should progress over time. Every 5 minutes you measure actual infection %, compare to target %, then cheat. If infection is too slow, buff infection chance and incubation time. Too fast, nerf them. If players turtle and stall the round, you can force new infections, bring a zed back to life, or buff zombies resistance or structural damage. There are dozens of levers you can pull to control the pacing. The point is you're not simulating a virus, you're orchestrating a horror experience. Explicitly cheating a little behind the scenes is the only way you're gonna hit your story beats reliably.

[ketufaispikinut]

Define how the round should progress over time. Every 5 minutes you measure actual infection %, compare to target %, then cheat. If infection is too slow, buff infection chance and incubation time. Too fast, nerf them. If players turtle and stall the round, you can force new infections, bring a zed back to life, or buff zombies resistance or structural damage. There are dozens of levers you can pull to control the pacing. The point is you're not simulating a virus, you're orchestrating a horror experience. Explicitly cheating a little behind the scenes is the only way you're gonna hit your story beats reliably.

This makes sense and I'll add something similar to the doc. I'm just not sure of a few of these suggestions, but the general idea is good (forcing random infections would just be frustrating, for instance).

[ketufaispikinut]

@AppalachianHooch

In general, zombies should get stronger and stronger the more the round advances, to prevent endless stalling by the crew. Mutations should be more common, stronger, zombies should do more damage or the infection could have a shorter incubation period. Of course, this should be balanced around the remaining number of cremwates vs the size of the infected horde. Think of it as rubber banding to constantly keep the round fun for both the zombies and the uninfected.

Is this good?

[ScholarNZL]

Had a glance through, and I really like it overall!

The idea of consolidating things toward a more deliberate “Final Stand” phase sounds fantastic, especially compared to rounds that just slowly diffuse into isolated survivors.

A few areas I’d love to see expanded on a bit more in the document:

• At what stage does the pinpointer effect start to appear? Is the idea that a specific zombie type acts as a sort of hive-leader/tracker, or more that the infection/hunger escalates over time until zombies can actively sense remaining survivors and receive pinpointers for them?

• How are escape pods intended to behave in this design? If technically feasible, it could be interesting to disable them past a certain infection percentage, potentially tied to an automated Central Command or station announcement to reinforce the shift into the “Final Stand” phase.

• What kinds of mutant/special zombies are planned, and how are they selected or introduced, then escalated during the round?

• One of the more common complaints with Initial Infected currently is that they can effectively function as anti-crew survivors for a large portion of the round, doubly so if experienced players keep themselves stabilized with anti-toxins while using strong gear to suppress resistance. Is this something your design is aiming to address or reduce in some way?

Overall though, I think the direction is really promising, and I’d definitely be interested in seeing the document fleshed out further.

[ketufaispikinut]

@ScholarNZL
Addressed!

For the pinpointer, I was thinking of something like 42459. The idea was that when almost everyone is infected, the pinpointer can swoop in to put the round to an end quickly.

The pod idea was very good. Currently, in zombie rounds, the optimal strategy as a survivor is to rush EVA and throw yourself in space before coming back to a pod just in time for evacuation, and that's not a good thing, since it encourages not engaging with the station.

I'm not really sure if I should really go in detail about specific mutation types (with design docs being supposed to not be feature descriptions). I wrote some "guidelines" as to what mutations should be instead.

Finally, I agree with the complaint of the initial infecteds chugging dylovene and just sabotaging the station for the whole shift being a terrible strategy. IIs should turn eventually and should only sabotage the station at the beginning of the shift. Their skill at sabotaging shouldn't be the only thing that determines if zombies fail or succeed, though. Crew member efficiency in handling the outbreak should also matter.

[ScholarNZL]

Took a second look, and good callout on the design doc not being a feature wishlist, it's been a short while since I've reviewed the design doc design doc, if that makes sense!

Yeah all of my points were very well addressed here, thanks a ton for being open to the feedback!

[AppalachianHooch]

@AppalachianHooch

In general, zombies should get stronger and stronger the more the round advances, to prevent endless stalling by the crew. Mutations should be more common, stronger, zombies should do more damage or the infection could have a shorter incubation period. Of course, this should be balanced around the remaining number of cremwates vs the size of the infected horde. Think of it as rubber banding to constantly keep the round fun for both the zombies and the uninfected.

Is this good?

Yeah, looks great. I just wanted some kinda concept of active feedback driving the round. Stalled zombie rounds or rounds where either zeds or sec get wiped inside ten minutes aren't much fun. Thanks for taking the feedback.

[YoungThugSS14]

Nice document with fun ideas

[YoungThugSS14]

You should explain why having a bite infect a player 100% of the time is bad, rather than saying "how combat works"

[YoungThugSS14]

you should just specify that they lose their hands, but also zombies with hands should have innate prying

[YoungThugSS14]

can you elaborate on what you mean by a real zombie game mode? Do you mean that romerol should include all the stuff mentioned in the doc like mutations

[YoungThugSS14]

Worries about CBURN should be mentioned here, whats stopping CBURN from just kill all the survivors in fear that they're infected.

[YoungThugSS14]

you should mention this earlier in the early game section, when talking about II symptoms and first infected

[YoungThugSS14]

an overall issue with this document is that it seems like every round will play the exact same way, Zombies infect tons of people, last stand at evac with CBURN, with other gamemodes there's room for alternatives, Nukies going stealth, Syndicate doing Gimmicks, Revs stealthily converting command